On Wednesday morning, Standing for Women founder Kellie-Jay Keen and TalkRADIO fill-in host James Max clashed over trans ideology and the right of trans-identified males to enter women's spaces, with Max arguing that Keen should be "cancelled" for holding the views she does.
"If somebody says that they're a female and they're not and they get find out, then they've been dishonest. It doesn't mean that they should lose their livelihood, absolutely not, depending on obviously what that job is. But no, I don't really understand how it's got anything to do with JK Rowling" said Keen, referring to the conversation leading up to the argument.
"But it's got everything to do with it," Max responded, "because if for example, you have a look at the discrimination that does arrive for people, so you have so this individual here born as George Jameson, transitioned and then became a model and then when she was exposed as having been originally born as a man as opposed to the woman that she portrayed, then her life was kind of over and the discrimination started and I guess," responded Max.
Keen asked how exactly Jameson's life was over, to which Max asked if Keen would call Jameson a him or her.
"Totally him," replied Keen.
"You see, that's the problem because they were born a man and then and then they became a woman so they can never be her," said Max.
Keen agreed, stating that "I don't think any man can ever become a woman, no."
Max went on to explain being transgender, and the disconnect between the gender of the mind and body that they were born into, asking "should be discriminated against for the rest of the rest of their life because of the physicality of it?"
"No, I'm saying what you've just said there is absolute nonsense. There's no way that you can be — you are your body. There is no separation between your biological sex," said Keen, who continued on to ask why the human body would construct a body with cells of one gender, then change it in the center of the brain that controls this.
Max then argued against Keen, repeatedly asking if she was an expert, suggesting it was because she is female.
"Okay, and so you don't think that you could be born female but in fact, in terms of how you operate you are a man?" Max asked.
"No, I think you can probably be born any sex and behave in any way. And that doesn't really change your biological structure," replied Keen.
Replying to Keen, Max argued that her statement was because both her and Max were "pretty certain" on who they are, and have the expertise on their own experiences, but "you could never be in the body in the mind in the brain of somebody else."
"And in fact, by saying the things that you're saying it's pretty hateful, pretty disturbing, and pretty unpleasant," said Max.
Keen replied by saying that the statements Max was saying were "pretty hateful" towards women, that "somebody can just walk up and decide to change" their gender.
Max argued that no, transgender people did not just decide to become the other gender, and in fact "people tell me, who have gone through transitioning, it's probably the most difficult thing to face, to confront, and deal with."
"And because of the views of people like you, it means that they are facing discrimination at every turn, and you're making their life worse," Max continued.
Keen continued on to state that while she does not care how a person identifies, she cares strongly about biological men entering "female only spaces," and the safety of women in these spaces when men enter.
She argued that when men no longer commit sexual assault, rape and domestic violence, they can be allowed to enter these spaces.
Max attempted to argue that women commit these crimes as well, but Keen pointed out that the rate of these crimes in women in far less than that amongst men.
"I am slightly staggered by your views on the basis that — I may have to change your mind. Maybe it was right that if you take those views, maybe you should be canceled," said Max.
"Wow, you're on TalkRADIO, right?" Keen said. "Okay. And you think people should be canceled…"
"I don't think they should be. I don't think people should be canceled and I would like people to have different views but it's just I find it staggering that you would want to have this kind of rumination perpetrated against people who are born different from you," said Max.
"No, men out of women's spaces, that's not born different. That's a biological fact. And that biological fact determines whether or not somebody is a risk to women," replied Keen.
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